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Green By Design Podcast Episode 006: Sustainable Furnishings Council with Susan Inglis

Updated: Jun 21, 2021

Susan Inglis, Executive Director, Sustainable Furnishings Council

In the 6th episode Erica reveals a big tool in her toolbox of green design: the sustainable furnishings council, a big leader in the push for cleaner greener designs and furniture. Listen to the episode or check out the transcript below.

"Erica (00:07):

Hello and welcome. You've just tuned into the green by design podcast, which must mean you're an interior designer, decorator home stager, furnishing sneaker, or just a fan of going green inside. So thank you for tuning in today, regardless of who you might be out there. The goal of this podcast is to help the interior design professionals and industry as a whole go green through education, discussion and connection. And I am your host, Erica Reiner from eco method interiors, and today's guest is Susan Inglis. Did I pronounce that last name correctly? Susan, it's actually the pronunciation, Susan and goals. And I'm very glad to be here with you. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day. I'm going to introduce you so people can learn a little bit more about you now for those listening. Susan is the executive director of the sustainable furnishings council and resident expert with the organization she helped found in 2006, she has led the sustainable furnishings council to work with industry leaders, to establish criteria in order to gauge the sustainability of furniture, products, and practices, develop programs for educating all sectors of the industry and attract hundreds of companies to membership Ingles is also the founder of, from the mountain, a company that imports hand spun cashmere yarn from Afghanistan, providing safe income for over 100 women there.

Erica (01:45):

Susan serves on the board of the American sustainable business council and was awarded a 2017 visionary leadership award by the, I think NC means North Carolina business council, and she lives also in North Carolina. So again, thank you for being here. I am so glad to have you and also have you as a member of SFC. So that's great. Thank you to delighted to be here and for you to be involved with our work Erica. Oh yes. Everyone out there. I recently became a member. I'm very excited about it. So you should too, if you haven't already, it's not, I learned that it's not just for furnishings makers. It's also for designers like myself, and I would assume maybe a little bit for architects. Yeah. It's for any company involved in the industry in any way. That's very inclusive, which is awesome. Okay. So we know a little bit about you, but I would love to know more about how you got started doing what you're doing. Maybe how you got started into the company that you founded with the Afghany textiles and the women's bar,

Susan (03:01):

How you parlayed that into the broader scope of the sustainable furnishings council, why that's important to you. Yeah. Album, happy to tell those things. And the only challenge will be to keep me from going on and on, but I'll tell you that my whole career has been working with people and companies who make things. So when we started the sustainable furnishings council, there was a natural flow to that. I grew up in a family that made things with our hands for fun. And you'll probably notice in the background, there's some handmade stuff. I'm sitting in the living room of my house here. And when it came time for me to make a living being, I did not have sense enough to go and get a job, rather, I thought, what can I make? And I had lots of yarn. I had lots of sweater ideas.

Susan (04:01):

I've been making sweaters slowly. I got a knitting machine and started making sweaters more quickly. And that grew into a sweater business actually. And after some years of that, it evolved into a home textiles business. As I was invited by the organization I was doing production with, from a sweaters, I was invited by them to go to Nepal, to work with artists there, to get their skills and products to new markets. Those artisans make things with metal cloth, which comes from the inner bark of the giant stinging nettle plant. That grows only in the middle altitudes of the Himalaya. And I flew to a remote airport and walked three days to get to those artisans and loved being there, working with them and knew that no matter what product got developed, nobody was going to happen along, out there to buy it. So I decided I better take responsibility for bringing it to market.

Susan (05:09):

And with that decision made in the Himalaya and made in the moment I decided, okay, I'm going to import a load of bees. Textiles were developing when, and when they arrived some six months later and sort of declared this new business and with the artists in West Virginia who had been making my sweaters, I started making pillows and sofa throws. So this business importing things for the home because the nettle clog is very much like linen and is very good for things like placemats. And that was in fact, our main product. So it was home textiles that I was making with artisans in Nepal with artisans in West Virginia, soon with artisans in Guatemala as well. And the business evolved to include brokering product. Most of which I identified through publicly funded projects that I would serve as a consultant to. So I'd done a lot of short-term consulting for development projects, projects that might have a conservation mission, like the one in Nepal or a rural poverty alleviation mission or something like that.

Susan (06:32):

A women's empowerment mission. And my job over this range of projects would be to help with artists and understanding new markets. They could serve developing products for new markets and actually making connections for them to those new markets. So by the turn that 2006 came around, I was putting a lot of products into the residential furnishings industry. And that's where, and, and none of the Afghan cashmere goes into the residential furnishings industry at this time. It is, it started, I started working with artisans in Afghanistan later. It is very difficult to work there and we're not very active, but the hand spun cashmere yarn In 2006, I was putting a lot of products into the residential furnishings industry. When I got wind of the fact that there was going to be a meeting to talk about whether to start a new organization that might be called sustainable furnishings council.

Susan (07:54):

And I thought, well, that sounds interesting. Sounds like something that could be useful to my business sounds like the kind of thing that's right up my alley. So I went and the meeting was called by Jerry Caughlin in his showroom in high point. And it was an all day facilitated meeting to talk about the impact of the residential furnishings industry and the impact of decisions made by all segments of the industry by interior designers, by suppliers, by manufacturers, of course, by retailers and the upshot of the day was a decision by the 70 or so people present to, yes, see if we can form an organization. So we had an organizational meeting at the high point market in the fall of 2006, that resulted in the formation of a few committees and in the actual incorporation of the, before the spring 2007 market. And I have served as executive director of the organization since the beginning there at the beginning, it was a, keep an eye on it about one day, a week kind of job. And it soon became a full-time job and pretty much eclipsed the work I'd been doing with, from the mountain and which, as I said exists in name, but it's pretty much hibernated at this point. So there's the background.

Erica (09:29):

That's a great story. So now on your website so can people still buy products from there?

Susan (09:37):

Yes, they're the, the hand spun cashmere is available for sale directly from, from the and I will pack it up for you with my own hands it's and, and see that what we've got left now is sort of odds and ends. We, the, the, the, the formal business is in hibernation, plenty of beautiful, gorgeous odds and ends that we're happy to sell.

Erica (10:07):

That's great. What a great story. Okay. Wow. So when you got started, you were, this is pre e-commerce. So you were Hocking the sweaters at your local stores. You were, then you got one got back from Nepal, six months later, shipment came in, you were just working the buyers on your town and then tried to grow it nationally. Is that I just love the nitty gritty of business building.

Susan (10:36):

Yeah, well, I did a lot of pavement pounding. The sweater business eventually had eight reps across the country sales representatives and the home textiles business was selling products nationally and brokering products nationally. So yes, I would go to shows I would do the New York gift show. Did the inaugural New York textiles show is what it was the New York home textile show at that time. So yes, I would. And I did high point market during that period, too. Right. So early and from the mountains existence that I first went to have for market where sustainable furnishings council work is very much centered because that is the international home furnishings market. And, and so we do a lot of programming at markets such as the one coming up next month.

Erica (11:38):

Yes. And I would love to see more of that. I'm excited to see how sustainable we all can make high point. And I, I've done a little bit of digging before in the past. I've been hesitant to go just because I'm like trying, I'm always trying to find new vendors and makers who are doing something sustainable. It could be any, anything, just something a little bit better than the norm and conventional. And so I've done a bit of digging around in the high point market. Like they'd give you a list of the exhibitors. And it's a bit of a convoluted search. Like I have to start with the keyword green, and then I have to start with the keyword eco, and then I have to start with the word sustainable. And then I have to like, get a piece of paper and try and write them down. And so I'm looking for, I'm wondering if you suspect in the future, there might be like a section of high point market. That's like all sustainable in some way. That would be great. Cause then I could get in and get out.

Susan (12:47):

You will be very glad to know that we publish a guide. It's called the guide to green at high point market. And we also do it for the Las Vegas market. It's called one good guide at Las Vegas market, the guide to green and high point market. We've been publishing since 2007. And in 2007, we did have an eco pavilion. We have had eco pavilions at various shows at various times. I'm interested to hear you say that that's specifically what you want. We have found that what is effective in general is rather than a pavilion, the ability of the buyer yourself to identify real eco options in whatever section of market. So whether you're going to the, whether you're going shopping for rugs or for upholstered furniture or for case goods, or for whatever these things are in the place at market, that makes sense for them because of their style, because of their price point. What we do is guide you to them for their eco attributes. And we're what we're guiding you to as members of sustainable furnishings council. And you can see on our website, sustainable, you can see what the eco attributes of each of these companies is. So you can see their best practices, what sort of snapshot of what the company is committed to doing and where they are now in their journey.

Erica (14:30):

Yeah. You know, now that you say that that make does make more sense because that's, that's what I do when I search online. I don't start with like one place, unless it's like one vendor I know has almost everything. Yeah. But I don't start with that. So in my work as a green or eco-friendly interior designer, I pride myself on it being one part science, one part art and knowing where, what attributes to look for within the style and the budget and the criteria I'm looking for, where I might identify certain criteria or items, products, materials that I can swap out for something more eco-friendly or sustainable or non-toxic. So now that you say that that is exactly how I work. So I don't, I, I start from the other way from looking for a rug, I'll look for certain attributes in that rug and, and make sure it fits with the style and the budget and so on. So that makes complete sense. And that's why you're here today to tell us all what to do. And okay. So what I want to know is in your time, over these years, and basically since the inception of sustainable furnishings council, what have you seen that shrikes and resonates with you as really your biggest? Why? Like, why is green interior design important to you? What have you seen that keeps you passionate all these years later?

Susan (16:01):

Yeah, we, it happens that you and I are talking on the day that students around the world are striking for climate action. None of them are old enough to vote and all of them are striking for climate action, the climate crisis. This is one of the reasons our organization must exist and must do all we can to help this industry, the residential furnishings industry reduce environmental footprint. So the, it is such a big, big problem that it can be overwhelming. But the fact is that where we are each of us as individuals, as companies, as industries, as nations must reduce environmental footprint very significantly. If we continue emitting as much carbon dioxide as we are today, or in eight years from now, we will be at a place that it is irreversible. We have eight years, but some calculations, 11 years, we have very little time to reduce CO2 emissions so that the temperatures will not completely run away from us.

Susan (17:35):

And as you know, we are facing the melting of ice caps, the rising of sea level in any case. So there, that needs that we, as an industry, we as individual businesses, we as individuals must plan for how we are going to live when store, when it's hotter and wetter, where we live or hotter and dry, or where we live and when the storms and the forest fires and the floods, whatever it is, where we are, are stronger. So we have to be able to plan for that. And that is a lot of what our educating is about another emergency we are facing besides the pollution from carbon dioxide is the emergency of pollution in our indoor environments, the emergency of the harmful chemicals that we bring into our homes with furnishings products and with other things, there are tens of thousands of harmful chemicals used in the manufacturer of all manner of consumer products. It's not just your furniture, but there are five harmful chemicals that are commonly used in furnishings that are the five harmful chemicals, most commonly used in furnishings that we are concerned about. And we want you designers who specify furnishings to be aware of them. We want you to be asking what it's made of whenever you're specifying anything. And we know that you're doing so is going to help all the vendors you're working with, clean up their offerings to you, such that eventually these five harmful chemicals will be replaced, hopefully with something much cleaner.

Erica (19:32):

Absolutely. Right. And you touched on my very favorite subject, which is the cross section of environmental science and environmental ism and economics. Now I will admit in my undergrad environmental studies major, I got a C in environmental economics,

Susan (19:55):

Hard to do. It's hard stuff.

Erica (19:59):

I'll let that go. It's still my favorite topic because in this country and frankly, in a lot of the Western world, and now with the emergence of the middle class, in a lot of these booming Asian markets the most important thing we can do in the way our society is currently set up. So it was an anarchistic revolution. The what the one thing we can do now is vote with our money. And so our markets will and have been responding to demand simple is that, so if it starts with awareness, education talks like these, getting other designers involved, which is what this podcast is about and creating that demand. And we will see changes just like we saw with Arlene plums work and, and the fire retardants and requirements in California. We will see more of that happen. I just read a report from Oh, I don't remember, but I did remember seeing the statistical conclusion that first of all, this industry is growing, like with the popularity of shows and social media sharing and all that kind of fun stuff, people are really interested in.

Erica (21:18):

And I think they're starting to understand the psychology of design more and how your space can greatly impact your mood, your productivity, your stress levels, your joy, your expression. Even I see things like isolation and then lack thereof. So being able to, or the opposite thereof. So then enjoying having people over and hosting and community all intertwined with things like interior design and, and our environments. And now, you know, the term biophilic design is becoming more popular and people are getting interested in that. So that's great. And we're, and we're seeing awareness and a conversation moving there about the mental health and wellness aspect is the demand for the physical and the awareness of just what you said. There are about a hundred thousand ish chemicals since world war two that are on our, in everything that have been created. Very few, which have been tested very few, which have been banned.

Erica (22:24):

So I would love for you to go over just briefly the five, the five chemicals specifically for this industry. But yeah, you just touched on two really great points because there's nobody protecting you from anything that you bring in your house. It can be made with whatever, for the most part. And it's very hard to change legislation, but we need both, right? Like we need to be asking and lobbying is hard. And the chemical industry is lobbying, which was a fantastically wealthy industry is strong, powerful lobbyists. So we need that. But then also we have to educate the consumer base and the designer base so that we can create the man demand, which will provide a better foundation for requesting of our government to protect us a little bit better. It will be an easier sell. So what are those five things that we want to look out for

Susan (23:17):

The five harmful chemicals? And these are classes of chemicals are VOC, volatile, organic compounds, like formaldehyde the flame retardant chemicals, the highly fluorinated, stain treatments, anti-microbials and PVC or vinyl vac is most common plastic. And it in pliable or rigid forms. And we frequently in our industry just know it as vinyl, all of these things can exist in home textiles. For instance, all of them are persistent. That is even if we stopped using any of them today, they would still exist in the environment for decades and centuries. And are all of them. Exactly. All of them are associated with harm to human health and to other life on the planet. Yeah.

Erica (24:22):

Now, now I know that PVC is one of the no-nos. Is it to your recollection? Is it inundated with salads or is that a separate yes.

Susan (24:33):

Validates or you are added to make the vinyl pliable? So it's rigid when it is not got any fat lights in it, usually like the plumbing pipes and then ballots are added to make it very pliable, like a shower curtain or something.

Erica (24:55):

Right. Which is why your shower curtain smells by the way, the new ones. So yeah. Okay. So when we get to this point in conversation with, with anyone or to the consumer or to the designer, their next question is, well, usually the question is, okay, so what do I need to avoid? And what I'll just say to you and to everyone out there is it's actually so much, you need down this rabbit hole and never come out. So basically yes, you can avoid entire categories of things to the best of your ability and get us educated. And as you can, for me, I find it easier to tell people, to look specifically for the good things. And so to look for certain keywords in a textile that might be something like organically grown fiber, or it might be undyed or low impact dye or untreated, certain, certain words that indicate healthier criteria, as well as certifications that that's the easiest way to go. So that's like, you know, looking for those criteria, asking the makers, and then a level above that is a sort of third party certification. Who's done hard work for you. So just to wrap that whole question up in a bow, I would just say to anyone listening, my advice is to look for specifically for the makers, which is what I do in my practice, who are making the better things instead of looking exclude the entire rest of the 99.9%. That's incredibly overwhelming. Yeah. Just to put a bow.

Susan (26:45):

Yeah. And I'll give our listeners a few more tools to, I want to be sure everybody knows. We do have a buying guide on sustainable that will take you through different materials and help, you know, what questions to ask, what answers to look for when you were deciding what store to buy wood furniture from. For instance, I urge you to make use of our wood furniture scorecard, which ranks stores on their wood sourcing policy. When you were concerned about those harmful chemicals, we've been talking about, I urge you to make use of a supply chain questionnaire, which we have on sustainable, which is in the what's it made of section. And which helps you have the conversations with your vendors about whether these sorts of harmful chemicals might be present in the products you're looking at and what they, what they have to offer you.

Susan (28:03):

It just helps you have the conversation. And that is the kind of tool you need is tools for the conversation. Now there are certifications and you'll find those referred to on both the buying guide on the what's it made of supply chain questionnaire and on the wood furniture scorecard, there are certifications you can look for and looking for them is very important. It's also important to know that you won't always find them. So knowing how to have the conversation is also important. And Eric, I think that's one thing that you have said is is a core part of your practice.

Erica (28:46):

Yes, absolutely. So thank you for sharing that. And that is an invaluable resource, because if you were just dipping into, if you were a designer, stager, decorator architect, whatever, and you are attempting to get more into green or incorporate green into your, into your practice or bring it to your firm or whatever, it can be very overwhelming and you might not know where to start. So something like that is really, really good for getting your bearings, because quite frankly, this industry in its shift towards going green is the wild wild West. Right now, there are many certification bodies. There are many different words that can confuse people sustainable. Eco-Friendly green non-toxic, they're, they're sometimes used interchangeably, sometimes mean different things to different people. There's greenwashing. So for anyone who doesn't know, greenwashing is a term where as green has become a bit trendier over the years, companies will attempt to market themselves as being green.

Erica (29:55):

And I have seen this so many times where they will check a box, like say on There's a, there's a box you can check that that says, is this product eco friendly? And then the description of what makes it eco-friendly is ridiculous. And so an example of trying to push into the niche green market and claiming something that they're interpreting is helpful in some way, that's called greenwashing. And you, and so you just want to know that that exists. You want to, you want to go beyond checking the box, looking for that box and dig a little bit deeper for your client's sake and your sake in the worker's sake for the people who make the products exposed to different things, the planet itself on the whole, and then the workers on our end, if we're doing renovations, remodels, whatever, because there are so many people exposed to different things and we have to consider them as well. So what I would want to know let's see, okay. What would you, if there are vendors makers listening, or maybe we could send this episode to some big box stores or just, just get it out there. What would you like to see more of in the industry? In terms of shifting towards green and socially responsible,

Susan (31:27):

I would like to see people be loud about their commitment. I would like to see people and companies be loud about their commitment. And so I really think, yeah, it's important, isn't it? I really think that the requirements we have for sustainable furnishings council membership are worth considering first we ask that companies have their own commitment, whatever that is a corporate commitment to sustainability. Sustainability is a wide umbrella. The company might be focused more on reducing CO2 emissions might be focused more on reducing other pollution. The planet isn't enough trouble. We need to all of us start where we are and go forward. So whatever your corporate commitment is, it's a good place to start the next requirement for sustainable furnishings, council membership and item that we think is very, very important is a commitment to transparency so that when your customers ask what makes you say your eco-friendly, you are willing to tell them you're willing to answer their questions thoroughly.

Susan (32:47):

And this goes to avoiding greenwash, as Erica is saying, there is a lot of greenwash going on. Some of it is just a grab for market share. Some of it is unintentional, and you can dissipate a lot of this with a perfectly loud commitment to transparency. And finally, the most important thing is that we all, each of us as individuals, each of us is companies. Each of us is industries. Each of us is countries commit to continuous improvement. Sustainability is a journey. There is no perfection. The closest thing to perfection is your volume and your flagging continuous improvement.

Erica (33:48):

Absolutely. So well said, you must have done this before. That was perfect. That sentiment is exactly what I want to share. Start somewhere, do better, look for better do whatever you can. And that is something I went through. I personally, so I was an environmental industry and then I, for startups and small companies, I helped them start. And then I was very passionate about environmental education. So I started, I was an adjunct lecturer of environmental science, and I love that I might do it again one day. And then I started my design business. I, I studied decor decorating, and then I was starting to get the projects and little portfolio pieces here and there just getting my feet wet. And then I, you know, had to contend with like branding and marketing and all that kind of stuff. And I, at the beginning really left my commitment and, and what I wanted to do out of the picture, because I didn't know how to incorporate it.

Erica (34:54):

And I didn't know if I could promote that if that would be successful. And then I just decided I'm changing the name of the company and I'm changing what I accept to work with. And I'm going to work with ideal clients and people are gonna know that when they work with me, I will have a custom green guide for them outlining the goals of the project in a way that's well suited to them again, starting where we can, where we can. And, and that is now my whole, whole ethos. And is now what I'm presenting. And unfortunately I have seen companies hide their sustainability goals and efforts because they of preconceived notions of barriers to entry for the consumer. And so I really want any maker out there. And I want every designer who works with makers to constantly be letting them know that that is important to them and ask the questions you have, anything you would have as your favorite conventional store say, is there anything that you're making that's eco-friendly, this is important to me, I'm incorporating it into my business because I'm more than one occasion. I have seen a vendor maker, a supplier hide their sustainability efforts, and that's like crazy and counterintuitive, but it's because they think that people don't buy for, for eco-friendly they buy for whatever else first. But I really want to say it's both. I think it is, can be a beautiful thing.

Susan (36:28):

It sure can. You're absolutely right. That eco-friendliness can be a beautiful thing. And there it is fit in with our understanding that beauty is from within, but more important than that. I want to be sure your, our listeners know that we know that they are concerned about environmental issues. They are acting out of their concern. And of course, if they are going shopping for furnishings or for interior design services, they are first going shopping with whatever their taste is and whatever their budget is. But when a consumer knows that it is also an eco-friendly product, so not only they like it, they can afford it, but it has a valid eco story. 90% of them would be interested in that product. First, we've been doing consumer research since 2008, and this is something that we have seen consistently though, this 90% number is the current number and is the highest we've ever seen interest is growing, but you're right when we ask consumers, okay, so how come you're not buying as much in eco-friendly home furnishings as you are in other things like organic food and recycled paper products and non-toxic cleaning products. It is not because those things are less expensive. No, it is because they do not know that eco-friendly home furnishings exist. So that means it is up to us in the industry and up to the interior designers, most of all, to tell the story. So when you bring your client set of options, make sure to tell them not only how you would fit it into their living room or whatever, but also what the eco attributes are.

Erica (38:36):

Absolutely. So well said once again. And so I think I'd like to end on a positive note, which is what positive green changes have you seen? Just give me one example of like a great thing you've seen quite recently within our industry.

Susan (38:56):

Well, one thing I've seen is that growing consumer interest, this is great, good news for all of us, no matter what segment of the industry we're working in. It's great, good news, that there is more interest in that. And all we have to do is tell the story of what we have on offer, and we're pretty much guaranteed a response to it. To give you more detail on that. The research shows that consumers do often think that the eco option is going to cost more. Well, some things do cost more. For instance, certifications, as we were mentioning earlier, certifications do have a cost attached to them. Someone has to do the audit and they have to get paid to do the audit. And so that's going to increase the cost of the product in the fact, the fact is that in the case of residential furnishings in general, the construction of the product is so complex that whatever the certified elements are, they are not the largest elements of the product.

Susan (40:07):

And so overall it doesn't add a lot to the product. For instance, if you have a sofa with an Fs forest stewardship council certified frame, the, it might just put the cost of the whole sup a couple of percentage points. And we know that consumers are perfectly willing to pay up to 10% more, just like they would for their favorite brand or any other attribute. That means something to them. So that's something I want you to know is that their first reaction is they think, Oh my goodness, it's going to cost more. Well, not always that's right. It doesn't always

Erica (40:47):

Organic. And again, that demand putting your money where your mouth is. It helps all of us. So just like at trader Joe's, the organic spaghetti is sometimes cheaper.

Susan (40:57):

Yes, yes. Yeah. Demand makes a big difference. The other thing I want you to know is that consumers are hungry for information. We know this because we're listening to this podcast now. So we are listening to get more information. We are all hungry for information and your customers are hungry for information. So they want you to tell them what you know about the eco attributes in furnishings, and they want you to have that knowledge base. So I will give another little plug here. Of course, sustainable furnishings. Org is full of useful information for educating yourself and preparing yourself for your conversations with your clients. We also teach a course, a certificate course called green leaders that is six hours long. It's worth six [inaudible], and you can take it online or lab or teaching it in Minneapolis and November of this year. And it is, it will give you that grounding. And what the issues are that understanding of what clients customers are concerned about, what consumer concern points are, and then lots and lots and lots of questions to ask and answers to look for as you were choosing materials and products and making design decisions, but I'm includes a sales training module to help you put it all together and do your job better and grow your business, which is exactly what you will be able to do with the current crisis we're faced with and with your clients eagerness to be part of the solution.

Erica (42:49):

Absolutely. Right. And I don't think I finished my, my thought cause I got too excited about other things about this earlier, but that report, I mentioned saying that the home industry world and market is growing also specifically noted. And I didn't know any other characteristics like this, but it only specifically noted and consumers are increasingly interested in eco-friendly options that didn't say they're interested in anything else we're seeing that, you know, through out the industry. And if you are a designer listening to this, this course is such a good place to start with those certain criteria you might choose to do other things later, like well or leader, whatever, or maybe you've already done that, but this is going to be really good for folks that are, you know, have been designing and are learning a little bit more and trying to incorporate green things.

Erica (43:52):

It's going to give you a great structure and lead in to make it a little bit more clear on how to do it instead of just trial and error or being, you know, down in the internet rabbit hole of chemicals, scary things you just want to know. You just want to have someone like help you through that transition from conventional design to being able to offer to your clients. Yes. Actually I do know about where to start and what to look for and you don't have to go elsewhere. Like I can handle that for you in whatever capacity that that looks like. So yeah. So that is yes, absolutely. And the sales component that's ideal. So maybe when I'm done studying for my well exam, that'll be next on the list for me. Cause I'm a lifelong learner. I can help deliver the course one day who knows.

Susan (44:47):

True to possibility.

Erica (44:50):

Yeah. So, okay. I will not take up any more of your time. You've been so generous with it. I have so enjoyed our conversation, you know, and, and it was just a pleasure learning from you and getting to share all of your wisdom. So where is one place that our listeners can find you

Susan (45:11):

Sustainable So you can go to sustainable and you can contact us from any number of pages on there. So please do that. Please come to our website and consider getting involved with our work. I would look forward to hearing from you.

Erica (45:33):

Absolutely. Thank you. Okay. Well this has been a delight and we will have to have you back on maybe in next season or something, something like that and get more good stuff from you. So thank you again and have a wonderful rest of your day and weekend. Thanks

Susan (45:55):

Erica. It's been a pleasure to be with you. Thank you."

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